The following discussions are taken from alt.brojed.com, archivists who kept old brojed files, and the freedomofspeech board.

If anybody has anything of interest, particularly in the realm of old brojed files concerning the fallout in Leander TX, feel free to send email to dhowiec@yahoo.com, and I will try to find a place for it on this page...

It all starts with this post on June 25, 1998... Or, actually, it doesn't, for there is a pre-post here.

And, so-- here we go:

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Melindalfa: It seems wierd to call that a "missionary story", because I'm not sure what "mission" Jed is on. It's not Gods. Or maybe it started out that way, but he got quite confused along the way. Anyway, there are wonderful missionary stories about people getting healed and so forth, so let's not confused by what the Bible calls a "false prophet" (Jed).

BTW, one of Jed's "disciples", Ken Jones, came to my church about 6 months and unfortunately, decided to stay. The first indication I had that he isn't reading the Bible to carefully, was when he told us that he is perfect, and hasn't sinned since he became a Christian 5 yrs ago.

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Bro Jed: It is interesting that the Pastor and elders invited him to stay. But evidently, you believe you are a better judge of a ministry than your elders. Did you decide not to stay?

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Erin Glaser: I don't know of a church that would ever turn anyone away from worship there, no matter how misguided they might be. If I ever heard of such a church, I would think it unChristian indeed.

But then, I am a strong proponent of the parochial system and don't believe in "church hopping" til you find one that suits your interests.

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Waldmeyer2: Have you heard of a "minister" who kept a church from worshiping? Our church for years loved to sing and praise God. Then Ken Jones came, and told our church that the Christians there (which he didn't believe were Christians because they were not totally sinless has he claimed to be for the last 5 years) were too wicked to sing and worship God. He stopped all singing and praise in the Sunday services!

Ken once said "Praise and worship is like having a spiritual orgasm - it's totally self-serving". The Bible teaches repeatedly on the importance of worship! "God inhabits the praises of His people"; Jesus said, "If the people don't praise Me, the rocks will". "God created a people to praise Him". Praise and worship draws a person close to God for the person is focusing his attention on God and recognizing God for whom and what He is. Was Ken afraid of this?

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Bro Jed: God is holy and he expects us to be holy. Ken fears God enough not to promote hypocritical worship. Regretably when there is sin in the camp, even the righteous suffer as does God. ...

If we do not obey God all other expressions of worship are in vain. When I preached at Trinity in April worship and praise in the form of music and singing had been restored. Evidently, Ken and the leaders believed that the people had responded to the message of repentance.

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Waldmeyer2: Jed, Ken Jones turned many people in the church AGAINST the elders who stood on God's Word. There were many new Christians in the church who knew little of the Bible; Ken taught CONTRARY to the Bible, and told them they were to HATE those who challenged what he taught because they were sinners if they didn't believe him. These people began to sound like all the reports I hear about you and your precious little daughters: "I hate you! - You're going to hell!" Only this was toward Christians, people they had loved and cared about previously. (not that it's right to hate anyone - God loves ALL and we are to also.)

MANY people finally gave up and left the church - people who had been in that church many years - had taught there, had been elders. Ken told the people who stayed that they weren't to get together outside of church at all - no more going out to lunch after church, etc. and they weren't to discuss anything of the things he taught when they were outside of the church.

You can't imagine all the wrong and unScrptural things that Ken has done in the year he has been there. Or maybe you can - - maybe you know all about it. Maybe you support it. ??

That would be very interesting to know!

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Bro Jed: If you study the history of revivals typically there is a purging that accompanies the revival. Most people and pastors cannot handle the purging so we rarely have revival

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ELSMANLAW (aka Lawyer Jim): IN ANY EVENT, I GET NERVOUS ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE WALDMEYER WHO ARE CRITICIZING AN ATTEMPT TO MAKE A RELIGIOUS BODY MORE HOLY BEFORE GOD. IS NOT THAT THE WHOLE BALLGAME?

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MelJoyceF: That's not Ken's whole ballgame - his ballgame is more centered on showing hatred toward anyone who dared to question him about anything he said, and to get other people to hate those people also! He destroyed what was a wonderful, healthy church in the midst of a spiritual revival (prior to his arrival).

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Bro Jed: Sounds like to me Ken's got a holy hatred:

(Psa 139:21-22) Do I not hate those who hate Thee, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against Thee? {22} I hate them with the utmost hatred; They have become my enemies.

Ken is very Bible centered in his hatred of sin and those who oppose the preaching of righteousness.

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ELSMANLAW (Lawyer Jim):l. Again, I know not about the facts of Ken destroying a church body,.

2. Since Jesus is head of the Church, anything that He builds will not be destroyed, in any event..

3. Ken is not the last word on anything.

4. The Bible is, and , technically, it is not subject to private interpretation for one to impose on another.

5. It sounds to me that both sides may have flirted with warring with flesh and blood, and not with the evil spiritual warfare.

6. It is certainly true that many churches today get carried away with Praise & Worship, believing that they can woo the presence of God into their midst., and then capture Him to do miracles with their finances and healings, etc. God is not so easily fooled, and such behavior should be inveighed against in a prophetic anger. After all, this whole Tulsa movement to "Name it and Claim It" is really based in theNew England Theosophical Society, out of which arose Mary Baker Eddy, etc. and worse like Edgar Cayce. Mind over matter (the latter of which does not exist).

7. Ken may be young , but that does not disqualify him to see evil. His judgment may be poor, as Jed and many of us were shocked that he would marry on such short notice, but that is a matter between him and God, and long engagements are often just games. Leave and cleave is good practice. Even Hindu arranged- marriages work in India and Bhuddists ones in China. Ken got her parents 'permission I am informed.

8. I have witnessed Ken do 2 commendable and mature things:

A. He debated a skilled debater named Jim Webber on "Holiness" at Jed's Conference, the second day after his wedding. He could easily have cancelled and attended to his bride. He could have dodged a skilled debater with many tricks up his sleeve. He was all guts, no glory.

B. He visited Holy Hubert in the Nursing Home far away in Raleigh, N.C. and reported on Hubert's needs to me. That was Chapter l3 Love in action.

I can only speak of what I have seen , as an old lawyer who weighs the evidence. One thing that goes without saying:

THERE SHOULD BE A MEETING OR SO TO RECONCILE ALL THESE OLD HURTS, AND I WOULD BE GLAD TO MEDIATE IN A CHRISTIAN WAY. THIS HISTORY DOES NOT GIVE GLORY TO JESUS, NOR HIS BODY, THE CHURCH.

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Melindalfa: God has given us the Bible as the ultimate tool for discernment. We are to follow Jesus as a sheep would follow a shepard, but. humans have fault. (No brainer) "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. "If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8. We have to use wisdom and discernment every time we get instruction from, especially a new, leader. 1 John 4:1 says "Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Ken contradicted God's word many times. I eventually went to the pastor and asked him if these new beliefs were now a part of the church's doctrine. They were.

When Ken started removing people from leadership, such as decons, and putting in people he wanted there, that was only the beginning. When he began to graphically describe male masterbation one Sunday, it dissapointed me that no one except my mother had the guts to take their daughters out from under the vulger words of this young evangelist. And when he began labeling some of the college students (who had been attending for several years) "sinners" and told them they had to leave the church, that was enough. How can anyone come to know God or get closer to God when they're not allowed to church???????

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ELSMANLAW: It sounds like Ken Jones wreaked havoc down in Leander. While it is difficult to draw any conclusions without a full understanding of the facts, I do have a couple of comments:

l. Explicit exposure of male masturbation may seem like poor judgment on Ken's part, but SIN is very specific and ugly, and God can so direct. Life is not a tea party.

2. I am glad to hear that a Church was kicking Sinners out. Paul did it in First Corinth. with the man who was living with his father's wife (not his Mother). There are always Sinners amongst the Saints. It is a favor to the Sinners to be booted. The man in First Cor. returned to the Church restored in Second Cor., you can note. The churches of America allow all kinds of evil to sit in the pews, so to increase the collection. Of course, I do not mean that first-time visitors should be kicked out, so do not come against me for that.

3. I know Jed and have met Ken, but I would not hesitate to rebuke them if they were wrong, just as I would expect from them. I am not saying that Ken was all-correct about destroying a church in Texas However, if the Church was of Jesus, it would not be harmed, as Jesus makes not one mistake in purifying. I pray that you people down there will be even stronger for the Lord Jesus, due to the experience.

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BeYontRy: So Ken can't condemn a sin without describing it in graphic, Penthouse-style details?

Maybe they're lucky he didn't bring in visual aids, or ask for volunteers from the audience.

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Waldmeyer2: Yes, there are always sinners amongst the saints - as with the Corinthian in an incestuous relationship, who had been confronted repeatedly but refused to terminate his wicked lifestyle.

It's not our job to try to figure out who has secret sins and who doesn't. Consider the parable of the tares amongst the wheat: during growth, they appear identical. Jesus said to leave the tares and let His Father deal with identifying them at the end time. Ken Jones came into our church and immediately started making decisions as to which Christians "weren't really Christians". He threw out (amongst others), the young man who had once dated the girl he (Ken) decided to marry - told him to never come back to the church again, and told the girl she was never to talk to him again. Ken ended up with basically a church of new converts: many new Christians had just come into the church just prior to his arrival, and many of the Christians who had been in the church for many years were driven out. Thus he had a group of people eager to learn the Scriptures, but with no prior understanding of them. He taught the Scriptures from a very twisted perspective, and these people received it in ignorance. There has been much hurt on the part of those who were driven out - driven out of a church they had raised their children in for many years, the church they had given of their own funds to support, the church they had literaly laid a foundation for, tied rebar for, framed and roofed. When some of the teenagers went back to see a friend who had stayed there, they were told to get off the church property and never come back, that they were not to talk to anyone who went there.

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Doug Berry: And that, children, is a cult. Charismatic leader cutting off all former contacts by edict, demands that anyone who isn't a sheep is somehow demonic.. Sad really. While I'm not a Christian, I've been welcomed at many Church events and services, and most of the time felt welcome. It sounds like Ken is one of those people who would have been burning "heretics" to get their farmland a few centuries back.

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Erin Glaser: As I said in another post, lack of accountability is the cause of a great deal of departure from God's will. Some denominations derive their leadership from "the people" in a sort of democratic fashion; for example, there are councils and conventions and doctrine is voted on, the presumption being that God will lead the people, at least on average. Other churches derive their leadership from a single person or a small group of people whom everyone acknowledges as having authority and being led by God. In both of these situations, there is some accountability at the local-church level. When a pastor starts saying and doing things that the people regard as contrary to God's will, then people have some channel to go through... if it is of the first type, they "vote him out" and if it is of the second type they "go above his head." But a lot of little storefront churches have no such accountability and when the pastor goes wacko there is nothing the people can do but leave.

The moral to this story IMO is that storefront churches are dangerous. The only way they can be sure to be true is if God is leading the one person in charge. But if God *was* leading him, then he couldn't make any errors. And the very fact that there are THOUSANDS of these little churches, and they teach many different things, shows that the chances are very, very low that God is leading the pastor of the church on your corner.

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BeYontRy: A church that is "truly of Jesus" can't be harmed? How far does this invulnerability extend? Will razor blades stored in such a church stay sharper longer, etc?

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Joshua Weiner: Sounds like Ken has been putting some really fat rocks in the crack pipe and hasn't been sharing. Anyway. He sounds like a regular prick and this is the sort of thing fundies do. Either gather the populace to throw him out and tell the deacons and pastors to pack up with him, or find a new church. Its you vs. Ken's ego and it looks like the ego has the upperground and has full support of the id and super-ego.

If fundies do this to other people's churches, then its little wonder I don't want them in the civil government.

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Erin Glaser: This may sound quite harsh to you, but... If this is what your pastor says, I would advise you to LEAVE this church. Doctrine should not be changed just because a new guy has come in to roost... and if it changes on such a whim, it cannot be true to Christ.

IMO the lack of central leadership invites this sort of problem. I mean, heck, any Joe with the necessary down payment can set up a "church" and start preaching whatever the heck he wants. Let the buyer beware.

> When he began to >graphically describe male masterbation one Sunday, it dissapointed me that no >one except my mother had the guts to take their daughters out from under the >vulger words of this young evangelist. Such behavior is completely inappropriate for a congregation which includes young children. It is as if he had passed around copies of Playboy and Hustler to show people what they shouldn't be reading. Adults can, and should, be challenged, pushed out of the "comfort zone" in a sermon about sin. But children need a comfort zone to thrive. There is no need to

> And when he began labeling some of the >college students (who had been attending for several years) "sinners" and told >them they had to leave the church, that was enough. How can anyone come to >know God or get closer to God when they're not allowed to church???????

This is entirely inappropriate. Everyone should be welcome at a church, believers and non-believers, people who have successfully conquered sin (with the help of God) and those who are still struggling. I think you've answered your own questions. This man is not helping you or your fellow churchgoers.

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Waldmeyer2: when I first started reading the newsgroup Jed Smock had numerous posts on it. Since he or Ken Jones have not answered my e-mails, (though I know for a fact that Jed - at least - has been online since) and since Ken has refused to give ear to those in the Texas church that questioned him, this was my next choice in trying to get in touch with Jed, as Ken's overseerer (or "general"??)

Why would I want to communicate with Jed? Hopefully, to prevent any other church-people down the road from all the suffering that many wonderful Christians in my church went through at Ken Jone's hands. You out there who aren't Christians, don't judge us by what K or J have done - it is NOT the Biblical pattern, it is not the law of love that God requires of His children either towards other Christians or towards non-Christians. I have never seen such hatred and pride from any one who calls themselves Christian.

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Nathan: Rationalizing "confrontational evangelism" is something the General has been doing for about 25 years now.

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Melindalfa: Sounds like a 25 year old misconception. Jesus threw people out of the temple who had set up shop to sell misrepresented merchandise. And he rebuked Pharisees and others sinners who had hard hearts. But when the Bible records an apostle or disciple ministering to Christians; or when they spoke to sinners to convert them to salvation, they never displayed this hatred and lack of compassion that you disguise as "confrontational evangelism".

Let's keep in mind, this is more than just being rude. Ken publicaly embarred people in the congregation. Several people have told me he called them into the pastor's offices, and literaly yelled and screamed at them about how wicked and disguisting they are. I am told in one case, he publicaly called a young man down, and told him to leave during one service. This is more than just someone's style, it's not Godly. As you say, it doesn't follow Jesus's methods. Jesus's actions reveal the heart of God.

I'm not saying that there is not a time for rebuke, there certainly is. And Jesus was not always "gentile" with people, but we should read how he handles situations. You say Jed patterns his ministry after Paul, why not after Jesus?

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Nathan Engle: In the manuscript from _The Mystery of Christ_ Jed seemed to make the case that the teachings of Jesus and his methods were mostly directed towards his fellow Jews, while the work of Paul and the other apostles offers an account of a supposedly more-relevent "market trial" for the dissemination of Christianity among gentiles.

Thus, by this assertion, Jed and Ken model their acts on those of Paul because they face many of the same problems he did, and because they draw inspiration from many of his solutions to those quandaries. I'm not sure it's necessarily a strong argument, and I'm sure it must be appalling to anybody who actually cares when Jed and Ken give Christianity a bad rep, but from my standpoint I'm perfectly willing to simply accept their decision at face value.

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MelJoyceF: There have been many people who have had to deal with a great deal of hurt from Ken and the leadership at the church - much of which is too personal a nature to ever mention here - - public humiliation over personal things is a biggy - a means of exerting control over people. Thus the appeals via this NG to Jed Smock and Ken Jones to not do the same at other churches down the road (which they have not exhibited the slightest bit of remorse over). It leaves me wondering how many other churches they have done the same to. Ken even bragged about being thrown out of many churches that would not accept his teachings. Too bad our little church was not one of them! So much hurt would have been averted.

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Bro Jed: As it pertains to the effect of the revival upon this local church, I will now paraphrase what the leadership has said, and still says, as well as, the general consensus of the dedicated members within the same: "Trinity Christian Center has never been this healthy and active; we are more focused than ever; we have never before experienced such an awesome manifestation of God's power; it seems so easy, now (after the revival), to do what was so difficult before." These are just a few, of the many, statements that have been made, again, by the leadership, meaning, Pastors, Elders, Deacons, and the dedicated core of Trinity! Anyone can consider themselves free to contact Pastor Ron Rhea at (512) 515-5591, if the veracity of the above statements should be called into question.

Lastly, and this is only for Mr. "Meyers," I have a message for you from Pastor Ron Rhea (the pastor of the poor, pitiful, beat-up church, of which, you claim to be a part): he does not agree with any of your assessments, as it pertains to the state of the church; and, if he finds out you are in the church, and saying what you are saying, he will personally reprove you, and if you do not repent, expel you. If you have any questions, contact him; I am just relaying the message.

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And thus we move to a new thread, that last post serving as a segue... beginning here.

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BeYontRy: Good to know that Xians can't function in an environment where even one person isn't thinking in strict lockstep with everyone else. The Pagan victory is assured!!!!

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Shalalhash: "Dedicated core" is those left behind after MANY families left who had been there many years. Families who had been teachers, deacons, leaders. The new leaders are mostly very young, inexperienced and practically hypnotized by Ken Jones.

UNTRUE! "Anyone" excludes anyone who left the church, and anyone from the churches these people have since gone to. We're being told all the people who left are now in cults where as the opposite is true. Those who have stayed to rescue our church from a cult cannot even approach our own pastor about our concerns!!!

To contact Ron with questions is to be thrown out of the church without even being heard out. How many more of us is he going to throw out?

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Bro Jed: Mostly very young and inexperienced? Non-sense! The Pastor has been a Christian for over fifteen years, and for most of that time has been involved in some form of ministry; and, the only elder has been a Christian for about the same. The other two leaders are deacons. One is 40+ years old and well-established within the Scriptures; the other--the only "young"one--Alan Couchman is stable in the faith (according to the Pastor), and growing in knowledge daily. Get your facts straight!

Hypnotized? What a joke! Influenced by me? Yes; and, Thank God! Hopefully, you are not envious!

>UNTRUE! "Anyone" excludes anyone who left the church, and anyone from the >churches these people have since gone to. We're being told all the people >who >left are now in cults where as the opposite is true. Those who have stayed >to >rescue our church from a cult cannot even approach our own pastor about our >concerns!!!

LIES! LIES! LIES! I am looking forward to returning in December, and hopefully, having the opportunity to taunt such a coward! You are a wimp! How dare you say you can not approach Pastor Ron. You coward! You spineless punk! Grow up!

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Waldmeyer2: EXACTLY the way any of the church people were treated who dared approach Ron or Ken with questions / concerns about the new teachings, method and hatred that Ken brought in.

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BeYontRy: So it's a *bad* thing to not want to be kicked out of the church one grew up in now?!?!? I guess after Jed's missionary experiences, he feels that taunting Christians is safer than taunting Pagans.

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So we move forward. What happened to the revival? Well... move to this thread, still in August of 1998, and:

Melindalfa: I go to another church in Leander now (I don't think there are but 2 spirit filled churches here) where great things are happening. I can't tell precisly if I would call it revival yet; sometimes it's hard to pinpoint exactly when it starts. But there are more and more people coming, confessing sin, being saved, getting baptized. We've more than tripled in size in the last year.

But Jim, you bring up a good point. History records that when revivals occur, whole communities are talking about it; many are being saved; many Christians are repenting of sin. Getting rid of sin is usually at the heart of a revival. I don't want to speak for other Christians at that church, so I'll say from my view point, revival was on the way to Trinity in Leander! In fact, as you may know, there are record #'s of people across the WORLD converting to Pentecostal salvation. And Leander needs it!! I believe revival started, and very quickly fizzled. I know that people's hearts were open, and therefore God can move and work through lives no matter who's preaching on the platform. And I'm sure that did happen. But what could have been revival meetings turned into theological discussions. I'm sure the leaders had their reasoning, but after Ken came, all other areas of ministry ceased. If I'm remembering correctly, music ministry, youth meetings, young adult meetings, cell group meetings. Apart from Sunday morning, the other service most emphasized was Ken's theology classes.

Open air preaching and witnessing is not unfamiliar to hardly anyone, we've all done it, or seen it somewhere. But Ken's style is so unusual for a self proclaimed Christian, that our local radio news station sent someone down to a campus where he was, to broadcast, and make fun of him.

There are a lot of people who no longer attend that Church who have managed to forgive and are now avidly praying for Trinity. I don't know what's going on there now, or who is left there. But I truly hope that God will be, or has already been able to start a new work.

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And we move to this interesting case found here.

Subj: Hi

Date: 98-08-01 19:45:03 EDT

From: JNYS67D@prodigy.com (MR DANIEL J LEE)

To: beyontry@aol.com

Hello,

This is Danie John Lee, member of Trinity Christian center. I do not see anything wrong with Ken's e-mail and frankly, PLEASE POST THIS TO ANYONE you wish to.

He was right on the mark. Lies! Lies! Lies! >

LIES! LIES! LIES! >And you are a wimp and coward and you are still SINNING by GOSSIPING and SLANDER a YEAR after the revial started. PATHETIC.

Perhaps the real issue is that YOU REFUSE TO LET GO OF YOUR SIN!!!!!!

Why don't you repent and get saved??? Hmm???

Don't you dare challenge Ken Jones. Don;t you DARE challenge me.

And STOP CHALLENGING and TEMPTING God!! Or I promise you this, you WILL BE CURSED before the year is over. >

Love in Christ,

Danie "in the lion's den" Lee

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Recently deleted from brojed.org, the following chimes into the "q + a" section -- and could be considered Jed Smock's "last word" on the subject.

Waldmeyer, Tue, 17 Nov 1998 01:04:24 EST: Your web page, http://www.brojed.org/Update.htm says "WILL be posted within 24 hours" - I'll check back to see if that is true.

Jed Smock and his underling, Ken Jones, came to our little church in Leander, Texas and wrecked havoc there! They took over the leadership, convinced many people there that anyone in the church who questioned his teaching is a hypocrite, not really a Christian, and should be forced out of the church.

Many wonderful Christian people finally gave up and left because of Smock and Jones. Many teenagers have been deeply hurt - and are to this day - by these two men who err greatly in their understanding and teachings of God's Holy Word. It seems to many of us that Jed Smock's and Ken Jone's primary purpose in life is to destroy the people around them that they come in contact with, under the guise of teaching the Scriptures.

Rather than bringing God's love to a lost and dying world, they bring their own hatred, claiming it to be God's. They blaspheme as they attribute to God that which is not of God. How sad that so many young people in our colleges today are being turned away from God by the hatred of Smock and his followers.

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Jed SmockIt is regrettable that the people who call themselves Christians don't have eyes to see. You read the scriptures and understand not. You hear but don't comprehend. Is it not true that every time in recorded history that God began a move of His Spirit that the result was division?

God's clarion call to the church is this: "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. " 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1

And again: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. Matt 10:34-39

The issue in the church is not God's love for us - that is unchanging. The real issue is do we love God as we ought. The deciding factor is the presence of sin in the church. The scriptures say if we love God, we keep His commandments. Jesus' commandment to the woman caught in adultery was to go and sin no more - not cut it down to two or three times a week.

The division God brings is always over the issue of sin and is between those who want to press on and walk with Jesus in purity, and those who do not. The love we look for is not people comforting themselves by how much God loves them, but their love for God that compels each man and woman to walk in purity. What hatred there might be is directed against sin. We are commanded to abhor evil and love only that which is good. Remember Waldmeyer that the scriptures warn that without holiness YOU won't see God: "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. - Heb 12:14

Read it yourself.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven . Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:13-23

Do false prophets call people to forsake sin or comfort them in their sins so that in the end the Lord calls them workers of iniquity? Notice that these people are "religious" who are working iniquity, who are continuing to sin.

You accuse us of not knowing the scriptures, but a plain and simple reading of what it says is enough to judge you. You need to repent and serve the Lord with all of your heart, not just that which is convenient. The heart totally sold out to the Lord is known by it's purity, not it's platitudes.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:3-6 Jesus preached repentance and holiness. He was killed for it. If you are not willing to lay down your sin, how can you lay down your life?

Lastly, if people were wounded it can only be because they are compromising with sin. You included. God did not send the Holy Spirit into the world to bring "God's love to a lost and dying world". John 16:8 says this: "and when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." Do you think the Lord expects the Spirit to reprove the world and not His church? "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God" - I Peter 4:17

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These are found in the archives of the Freedomofspeech page.

* Excerpts from numerous posts of Daniel J Lee's: Toward a member of the church in Leander, for not accepting Jone's teaching that a Christian can never sin again: "pray that every demonic spirit is released against him" "be cursed to the point of death" "may the gossipers and slanderers such as WALDMEYER BE FOREVER CURSED" "unles you repent, my curse will indeed stick with you."

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The world begs to know: Was Ken Jones sinless? Let's see:

Ken Jones, August 7: I disagree that a person can be a saint, and, at the same time, commit sin, e.g. masturbate (from now on MB)! What!? A person that is morally blameless, pure, and, by the blood of Jesus, washed from all, underline that word, sin, and, at the same time, commit such a filthy, nasty, dirty act as MB? Come on, man! No way! To believe this would not only be to be at odds with Scripture after Scripture, but, to plainly go against the very definition of the word/title "saint." Check it out, and you will see.

Are you a mad MB? If you answer yes, then, I, with God, demand that you forsake such trash and perversion, and, without reserve, give your soul, i.e. your life, to Jesus the Son of God for pardon and purfication!

Lastly, I would like to testify that I have been happily married, this is the key: being satisfied with one woman, for one year and three months, and, no, I have not MB'D! In fact, as a rule, I did not as a saint who was single (the times I did were early on in my walk with the Lord)!

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August 8:: First, the first part of the quote is out of context, "...no, I have not MB'D!" This statement is to be placed in the context of marriage, (how I used it), in which I have not MB'D ONE, no, not ONE, time!

Second, I do see how the last statement could be taken the wrong way by certain individuals, namely, "In fact, as a rule, I did not as a saint who was single..." I will take the low road here, so to speak: improper wording. I was not trying to convey that AS A SAINT I did occasinally MB, but, rather, from the time I was converted, in August of 91, until I was married, in May of 98, I MB'D as a rare, rare, exception, not the rule; however, in those rare occasions, and, I mean RARE, I was not a saint, that is, a morally blameless individual! Understand? I hope this helps.

Third, I see no hypocrisy in this. Maybe, as I said in the above, bad wording, but hypocrisy? Do you know what the word means? If so, then please demonstrate how I am being hypocritical. I am not imposing upon others that which I myself am unwilling to do. Oh no. Far from it! I, again, frankly confess, that the times in which I have sinned, post initial conversion, which, again, have been very rare, I was not a SAINT (a morally blameless/complete individual). No, no, no, a thousand times, NO!

I do not deny, no, not for a second, that a Christian can, i.e. they have the ability to do so, and, may (not necessarily) commit sin. However, again, to press my point, at the moment they do, they can no longer, until they repent and return unto their first love, call themselves a saint.

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Nameless: So now you know - when Ken Jones says he is perfect he is lying.

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Ken Jones: How so? I doubt very much that you can demonstrate this; but, rather, like most individuals of your kind, you will just continue to make BARE assertions, that is, assertions supported by [ ]!

Nevertheless, let us, my friend, remember the words of Jesus, "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

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Excuse for his sins after becoming a Christian: The gospel according to Ken Jones excuses sins in a single man's life because he is not married:

Ken Jones posted: Lastly, I would like to testify that I have been happily married, this is the key: being satisfied with one woman, for one year and three months, and, no, I have not MB'D! In fact, as a rule, I did not as a saint who was single (the times I did were early on in my walk with the Lord)!

Ken Jones also posted: "from the time I was converted, in August of 91, until I was married, in May of 98, I MB'D as a rare, rare, exception, not the rule; however, in those rare occasions, and, I mean RARE, I was not a saint, that is, a morally blameless individual!"

NOTE: Jones says "...happily married, this is the key: being satisfied with one woman"

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Ken Jones, August 10, 1999: Not at all. Read the post again; but, first, drop the negative mindset through which you are reading what I post. I think this will help.

Nameless continues: NOTE: Jones says "...happily married, this is the key: being satisfied with one woman"

Ken concludes: Exactly. If HUSBANDS were satisfied, that is, happy with their wife, then MB, or any other sex outside of marriage, would not occur. The same is applicable with single men: if single men will be content, that is satisfied, with their present location in life, then, MB, or the like, will not occur. Of course, the ultimate key is found in, whether a person is single or married, poor or rich, and so on, remaining satisfied with knowing God!

In closing, regrettably, in the times I have sinned, post intitial conversion, I was not content, satisfied, and happy in just knowing God.

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Melinda, August 10, 1999: Ken, since you publically lied, about the above, you MUST publically confess this to the people of Trinity. You were so hard on the people at Trinity who sinned, and now we find out that when you said you hadn't sinned in years since converting to Christ, you were dishonest. From the pulpit, you mislead me and all the other members of the congregation. You absolutley insisted in public confession. Therefore, it is your duty, to return to Trinity and apologize! Can we expect you to practice what you preach? Don't take this litely, this is very important to the credibility of your ministry.

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Unnamed: Mr. Jones... I find it very interesting that the Christians who left Trinity because of you, the people you and Daniel hence have and still label "rebellious sinners", were, at the time you were claiming to have been sinless since becoming a Christian, shown by God that you had secret sexual sins. Several people felt this very strongly from God and it constituted part of the reason they chose to leave rather than sit under your teaching and admonitions - they felt strongly impressed by God that you were living a lie before our church, that you were not sinless as you stood in the pulpit and proclaimed. Trust is a very important factor in choosing what leaders Christians will submit to.

Perhaps those who remained under your teaching were too spiritually blind or immature to hear from God regarding this.

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Daniel J. Lee: Title: Are You A Masturbator, Aliesha????, March 01, 2000 at 22:12:23

What??? Are YOU a masturbator and now you are trying to justify it? stop this wicked, sick habit and LEARN to control your sexual apetitite. If someone were to call you would you say, "Oh, just a mintue, I have to play with my crotch."

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March 02, 19100 at 17:30:35: As far as the whole debate concerning masterbation and sex, I am baffled as to why you try and seperate the two ... Would you want someone to catch you in the act of masterbating??? Hmmm??? ... Becaue Paul, like me, would say masterbation is a SIN!!! ... A masterbator is wasting sex DESIGNED for PROCREATION ... So, again, I ask you, are you a masterbator?

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And now we finally get to Ken Jones's side of the story:

Brother Ken, August 07, 1999: Nameless asks Did you verbally abuse/humiliate parishioners in public, as was reported? Ken responds:

No. Nonetheless, I am sure that some would say that they were "verbally abused" and/or "humiliated," e.g. like those who REFUSED to forsake sin, and sought to justify the same, and, then, wanted to cope an attitude with me. Yeah, I am sure these individuals felt as if I were verbally abusing them, when I rebuked them sharply that they might be sound in the faith.

Nameless asks another: Did you browbeat people into confessing sins in public?

Ken responds: No; and this so far from the truth, that it would be funny if it were not so pathetic.

Nameless asks another: Did you urge people to shun family members and friends deemed unworthy?

Ken responds: No. In fact, I encouraged right the opposite. However, there were times that I "urged" certain people to avoid particular individuals for a time or season for different reasons. However, this would have been an exception, and not a rule.

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My questions to Ron Rhea, Danny Jaynes, Bill Peeples, Alan Couchman, and everyone who was at Trinity Christian Center when Ken Jones came:

1. Did you witness anyone at Trinity Christian Center being verbally maligned, slandered, slurred, critiqued or libeled? Was anyone presented to the congregation in a manner that belittled that person, caused others' respect for that person to be lessened? Was anyone criticized to others? Was anyone in leadership criticized to others and eventually removed from leadership even though that person continued to attend the church? What about people who chose to leave the church - were they criticized to others for doing so?

2. Did Ken Jones encourage, compel, pressure, coerce you to make public confession of any sin? I personally saw Jones practically force numrous people into stating their sins publically, and into the microphone for the entire church to hear and with the possibility of being tape recorded. Were you counseled privately by Ken Jones or any other leader in the church and compelled to disclose any sin to that person? Were you requested to write a list of your sins down on paper and turn it in to anyone in the church? Many people claim this happened to them.

3.) Did Ken Jones or Ron Rhea tell people to not associate together under certain circumstances? I personally heard Jones telling the church not to go out to any restaurant after church, not to talk to other church members after the service, not to discuss amongst themselves anything he had taught. Those who stayed in the church were forbidden from talking to those who left the church. Perhaps some of you reading this think you were not personally TOLD to not associate with certain people, but you recall Jones teaching about this very thing and generally urging a disassociation upon the church members regarding certain people.

Read again Jones' response to the third question. He emphatically states, "No", then proceeds to explain how in fact the answer is actually "Yes".

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Betrayed by his own words on August 08, 1999, 23:15:39:

To Ken Jones: In a Sunday night service at Trinity Christian Center in Leander, Texas, you, dressed in a cream colored suit and red shirt, placed your hand flat upon your chest and stated (exact quote; I wrote it down at the very time you said it): "Don't look at me and think that I have sinned. I have not sinned in the ten years since I became a Christian." YOUR EXACT WORDS THAT NIGHT. This was just about two months before you married. MANY people were present and heard that statement.

Let's see - you wrote: "from the time I was converted, in August of 91, until I was married, in May of 98" You had been a Christian less than seven years - a possible mistake in subtraction or perhaps you were rounding it off to ten.

So let's say you MEANT to say "I have not sinned in the SEVEN years since I became a Christian." But wait! You wrote in your post:

"from the time I was converted, in August of 91, until I was married, in May of 98, I MB'D as a rare, rare, exception, not the rule; however, in those rare occasions, and, I mean RARE, I was not a saint, that is, a morally blameless individual!"

So, when you stood in our church and said "Don't look at me and think that I have sinned. I have not sinned in the ten years since I became a Christian." You actually must have meant to say, "I have not sinned in the SEVEN years since I became a Christian EXCEPT OFF AND ON DURING INTERMITTENT SPELLS WHILE I WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN THROUGHOUT THOSE SEVEN YEARS."

You were asked: "Did you verbally abuse/humiliate parishioners in public, as was reported?"

Your response: "No. Nonetheless, I am sure that some would say that they were "verbally abused" and/or "humiliated," e.g. like those who REFUSED to forsake sin, and sought to justify the same, and, then, wanted to cope an attitude with me. Yeah, I am sure these individuals felt as if I were verbally abusing them, when I rebuked them sharply that they might be sound in the faith."

*THE TRUTH*: You exceedingly abused and humiliated MANY people at Trinity verbally - repeatedly! A BLATANT LIE, MR. JONES! *YOU* know it, I know it, and EVERYONE who was at Trinity would know this is a lie! You walk with your head in a fog and have no idea the hurts and wounded spirits you left behind at Trinity!

You were asked: "Did you browbeat people into confessing sins in public?"

Your response: "No; and this so far from the truth, that it would be funny if it were not so pathetic."

*THE TRUTH*: You exhibited an amazing skill (such as cult leaders usually do) at coercing people into confessing their sins publicly, IN THE MICROPHONES, to the entire church. You named specific sins and called for anyone who had ever done any of them to come forward and confess them publicly. You preached against masterbating then called for anyone who had ever done so to come to the microphone and confess it publically. You called for women and girls to come forward and make public confession of such.

You told people to lie down on their faces in front of the platform and call out every sin they could think of from their past. You STRESSED public confession was necessary. You told all the people lying down to shout out louder. Then, after an hour, you told them they would probably have to come back every night that week to continue calling out their past sins. You told them to go home and think of more sins and write them down to come back on Monday night and "call them out to God."

Many people later were appalled at themselves for being so swept up by your cunning words as to make public confessions over past sins. Some were eventually so humiliated that they never wanted to attend church again. YOU LIE WHEN YOU SAY YOU DID NOT BROWBEAT PEOPLE INTO CONFESSING SINS PUBLICALLY!

You were asked: "Did you urge people to shun family members and friends deemed unworthy?

Your response: "No. In fact, I encouraged right the opposite. However, there were times that I "urged" certain people to avoid particular individuals for a time or season for different reasons. However, this would have been an exception, and not a rule."

*THE TRUTH*: Your urging "certain people to avoid particular individuals for a time or season" was NOT "an exception", it was ORDERED upon the entire church! From the start, you told the church members they were not to get together with each other outside of church and discuss ANYTHING you had preached. Further, you ordered that none of the church members go out to a restaurant together after the services but to go home and be alone.

More truth: Family members who accepted your teaching were told they were not to talk about any of your teachings with their own family members whom they lived with who did not accept your teachings. Those who stayed in the church were ordered to shun, ignore and not talk to anyone who left the church. Even those who worked in the church's daycare and private school but had quit attending the church services were shunned by the workers who chose to follow you. This went on for MONTHS! Your followers who worked in the daycare would not so much as say "Good morning" or "Hello" to the workers who had left the church.

A wife who swallowed your teachings was told not to communicate with her husband who did not believe as you wanted him to.

You can't imagine the hurt you left behind! This had been a very close-knit church for many years. People weren't just "fellow church members", they were FAMILY to each other. You coerced people into rejecting their own blood relatives and friends who had been as close as family for years. You can't imagine the trust you destroyed in many people. You TAUGHT people to not trust others. You can't imagine the hate you instilled in the hearts of those who followed you! People who had previously glowed with the love of God on their faces quickly became hardend, cold with faces carved in stone. The change was amazing - and pathetic.

What a bunch of CROC you are posting! What a bunch of LIES! You are a BIG BIG dissappointment!

Someone else from Trinity said today, upon reading your posts, "What in the world? Those are out and out lies!" "Could he possibly believe his own lies?" "Does he think we've all forgotten?"

Mr. Jones - you may fool anyone you want on this BB who was not at Trinity, but those of us who were there KNOW what you said! Those who read this BB now know BY YOUR OWN WORDS that you lied to us that night! Maybe you just don't care since you are no longer there, and will likely never see any of us again. But think what your lies have done to so many people!

Do you care even in the least about the hurt you have caused so many people?

Ken Jones further posted: : Nevertheless, let us, my friend, remember the words of Jesus, "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

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Brother Ken, August 09, 1999 : Before any response will be given to the folly, of course, there is some truth mixed in amongst the lies posted, although, very little, you must meet the conditions that I have already laid out:

1. Identify yourself, that is, tell us who you are.

2. If any "rumors" are reported, the source must be quoted.

God Bless, Bro. Ken

PS -- Again, no identification, no response; as a rule.

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August 09, 1999: I'm not interested in your respone - you know the truth; those at Trinity know the truth; Daniel knows the truth. You have betrayed yourself by your own lies.

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August 09, 1999: Ken Jones posted : 2. If any "rumors" are reported, the source must be quoted.

The source (Ken Jones):

At Trinity: "Don't look at me and think that I have sinned. I have not sinned in the ten years since I became a Christian."

Proven to be a lie by Ken Jones' post on the board: "from the time I was converted, in August of 91, until I was married, in May of 98, I MB'D as a rare, rare, exception, not the rule; however, in those rare occasions, and, I mean RARE, I was not a saint, that is, a morally blameless individual! I, again, frankly confess, that the times in which I have sinned, post initial conversion, which, again, have been very rare, I was not a SAINT (a morally blameless/complete individual). No, no, no, a thousand times, NO!"

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August 09, 1999: If the posting on Ken's arrogant, abusive, cultic "rulership" was false, Jones has nothing to worry about.

If it's true that Ken Jones lied about his onanism (how squeamish he is about that M word!); had females spread-eagled out before him as he literally rubbed their noses in their sins; humiliated the daylights of worshipers; ordered them about like servants, even making them be cold to family, etc., then yes, Jones should worry. Such cruelty is more disgusting than onanism.

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August 09, 1999 No, not "spread-eagled" - just laying face down on the floor. Be careful not to presume and add to what is posted. The absolute truth is disgusting enough.

Read this quick before the webmaster pulls it off to protect Ken.

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Ken Jones, August 10, 1999: What I did say, and have been saying all along, is this: since my initial conversion in 1991, as a rule, I have not sinned. Period. I have not sinned in years.

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Here's Daniel Lee on sinlessness through 1999. His life story of redemption is at the bottom of this document.

Daniel J. Lee: July 21, 1999 Ken and Jed are morally perfect and, morally speakiing, infallible through Christ Jesus who makes them so.

My wife and I have done extensive research into what the Bible teaches concerning holiness and sinless living and we keep coming to one conclusion: God requiores absolute obediance to His commands in order to inherit eterenal life. Absolute obediance necessarily excludes all sin (disobediance to God)."

I absolutely coddle ZERO lust in my heart. Do not forget, I am sinless because Christ Jesus empowers me to live holy and sinless... Yes, I plead 100% not guilty. I am SIN FREE. Now, the question is, ARE YOU??? REPENT!

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Daniel J. Lee: August 10, 1999 Annika and I have had to cut off our relationships with my wife's family because they claim to be Christians and yet refuse to repent of all sin and obey all the commandments of Jesus Christ. (note: "refuse to repent" is his term for anyone who says that a Christian does not live a totally perfect, sinless life)

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The following are directed to a fellow Leanderite church-goer who did not subscribe to the "sinless" doctrine:

Daniel J. Lee:"pray that every demonic spirit is released against him"

"be cursed to the point of death"

"may the gossipers and slanderers such as WALDMEYER BE FOREVER CURSED"

"unles you repent, my curse will indeed stick with you."

The opinion of Charismatic churches:

Many charismatic chruches and leaders (like Benny Hinn, Rick Joyner, those asociated with the Totonrto/Pensacola Revival (Curse) and others involved with this "catch the fire" or "flow in the river" movement, will be directly responsbile for ushering in the kingdom of the anti-christ. Not all charismatics have been sucked into this anti christ spirit, but many have. The entire 90's charismatic revivals are a COMPLETET PHONY (for the most part) and are operating under the spirit of demons and devils. Particulary the Toronto curse and others like this.

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Not having any other old brojed posts at my disposal, I have to skip and go by conversations about conversations in the freedomofspeech message board. In an effort to cut heresay, the following comes from those who were there:

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2/19/00 Smock may not teach against birth control, but when Jones showed up at the little church in Leander, TX, he taught that using any kind of birth control is wrong, even "counting days" to be "safe". Course, not too many young couples stuck around to follow his teachings, but the few that did are producing babies about as fast as possible, although that was not their plans when they married (before Jones showed up).

Another proof that followers of Jones are mindless numbskulls that can't think for themselves, and have no concept of what the Bible really teaches. Blind following the blind.

6/20/00 Eldon posted: ******* on the contrary, Ken Jones is likewise warm and friendly, personable and considerate. Apparently, you have never spent time with him in a friendly environment.

Ha! If/when BroKen Jones happens to be in a friendly environment, he always manages to destroy any friendliness present.

You can't even have a friendly atmosphere when you go out to a restaurant with him; he begins criticizing the waitress, calling her a sinner, and, instead of holding a normal conversation with those at the table, he begins preaching to the restaurant in a loud voice under the guise of "talking" to those at his table. Such a creep!

One who has been in BroKen's presence, as have numerous friends and relatives - repeated number of times.

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6/25/00Eldon posted: because I've been told by people who know that these anonymous people that are criticizing Ken are lying. All he has to do is identify himself by name and there's a Ken-friendly pastor in Texas ready to blast him. * * *

So why doesn't any "Ken-friendly pastor in Texas" post their blasts on Smock's BB? The church has a web address, the office staff have e-mail addresses via the site, along with internet access AND Smock's URL. Ever see any posts from the church's leadership? Nah - they've canned Jones so don't care what anyone says about him. They've changed the name of the church from Trinity Christian Center to Lifesprings in an attempt to dissassociate themselves from the reputation they gained in the community during the time Ken Jones was there.

Eldon further posted: ******* it is the very pastor of the church in Leander that stands ready to blast the liars who have been posting anonymously against Ken Jones... This liar who has been slandering Ken, has been mouthing off anonymously for months now, but is unwilling to validate his status as a faithful witness, because he will be instantly repudiated.

* * *

Eldon, do you even know the pastor? Have you ever talked to him yourself? Do you know ANYTHING about him besides what you've read others say? Nope. He hasn't a clue as to who YOU are.

Repudiated by who? The Leander pastor who eventually denounced Ken Jones, apologized for having him in the church, and promised the church Jones will never be welcome back to the pulpit again? Ha! You'll not see any defense posted by him here. There are still a couple Jones-holdouts in the church, but officially, Jones is unwelcome to the church.

Eldon, do YOU really want to know the truth? You brazenly reject what eye-witnesses say, but you are basing your rejections on what other, NON-eyewitnesses say. Shallow. Very shallow.

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6/27/00 9:03:22 pm (Eldon) likewise, why doesn't the pastor that you claim has denounced Ken Jones post here to confirm it?

(Eldon) Therefore the pastor in question would do well to mark Ken Jones as an offender HERE publicly, IF HE TRULY HAS DENOUNCED KEN!

The pastor is doing all possible to disassociate the church's past ties to Ken Jones; you'll not find him posting postive or negative about Jones. "Ken Jones? Sounds vaguely familar; who is he?" There's already been mention of the church changing its name to try to rid itself of the Jones past.

I won't be surprised to see Eldon post a supposed comment from a supposed phone conversation or supposed e-mail received from the above pastor; but posting such supposed quotes contradicts Eldon's adamant stance in demanding absolute proof of who says what.

(Eldon) Anyone can get on a computer and post whatever they want to say here, that doesn't qualify them as a witness. The ladies and gentlemen of the jury are waiting for witnesses to identify themselves so that their testimony can be verified.

Anyone can post anything on these BB's and attach any name to it. For all any of us know, "Eldon" is an AKA of Daniel's. Consider the letters used in each name - they are quite similar: each contain d,e,l,n - the a in Daniel changed to o & the i dropped. Hmmm... how can we know if Eldon is Eldon, or Eldon is Daniel?? I wouldn't be surprised - they are sounding more and more alike, and the less Daniel posts, the more Eldon posts. Daniel couldn't keep quiet for very long.

(Eldon) no, I figured it's a woman because she asked questions and then proceeds to blab away as if she knew the answers.

Ah! Now we are presented with another possibility: if presenting a question followed by blab denotes origination as female, Eldon is likely a woman... er, girl is more probable. Eldon's criteria for identifying authors certainly throws doubt on Daniel's gender as well - - who can forget all those "Hmmmm?s" and, more often, "Hmmmm, you stupid ignorant creep?" all followed by mindless chatter.

(Eldon) Setting aside the fact that women throughout history have been notorious troublemakers, talebearers, and slanderers, it IS possible that Comment is a NOT a woman. Could be just a pantywaisted male.

Ah ha! Eldon must have realized he was catgorically placing himself within his qualifications for female, so added a clause allowing for the possibility of specified writing style to originate with males, albeit "pantywaisted" such as he and Daniel.

I have to agree - it's humorous to watch Eldon/Daniel squirm over the identity of who is revealing the truths about what happened in Texas.

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6/24/00 2:32:48 pmAlthough the leadership in our church here in Leander, TX have recently openly disowned Ken Jones, there are a few people still devoted to Jones. These few say Daniel Lee has gone off the deep end, is likely suffering psychotic illness. They are quick to disassociate themselves from Daniel's personal brand of religion, and attempt to protect the reputation of their hero, Ken Jones, from being associated with Daniel Lee as well.

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Kira ... 6/24/00 3:52:43 pmThanks for your comments. You say Preacher Ken Jones was repudiated by your church? (Hope they hired a better clergyman). There was lengthy discussion about that on Cope's BB. Cope, like Daniel Lee, defended Jones. Cope even said he phoned that church to unravel conflicting stories. Cope's version was, that Ken Jones was "welcome back" any time. Then Cope closed discussion, so no harm could befall Jones.

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6/27/00 10:37:46 amYes, he eloped and kept right on going up to Ohio. It was about a year later the pastor decided not to welcome Ken Jones back.

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10/6/00 8:30:09 amA strange situation indeed. Those "wicked sinful putrid piles of dog-vomit" that were driven out of the church because they didn't agree with Jones have received that same letter that Cope (who has never been to Leander) posted.

What many assume is going on is the church is in desperate need of money (those who left were the best and longest term supporters of the church). One or two still in the church may be a little kinder toward those they drove off, but many are still very hateful, including leadership. If there had been a softening of the heart, the pastor and others would have called those they rejected and apologized; rather, they are still extremely cold when encountered around town. I doubt any ex-trinity people will be going.

Not likely the church leadership sent Jones the letter, as the pastor has told the church Jones is not welcome back. But there are still some who are faithful to Jones, who might have posted the invition. Jones wouldn't dare show up; he's too afraid of being confronted in a situation where he is not in full control and he's too prideful to risk being rejected if he did show up.

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10/9/00 8:37:59 pmSometime during the last 3or 4 days the invitation on the Smock BB has been removed. Maybe the pastor found out it was there and contacted Smock about it.It would be a show worth watching if Jones mistakenly thought he was invited and were to show up. He may be tolerated at the wedding of a friend of his little wife just so she can come (he'd never let her go back to her lifelong friends without him there to control her, won't even let her talk to anyone in Texas without him standing guard), but that's a different story than actually attending a church service.

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10/20/00 9:48:36 pmInterestingly, Jones was never mentioned at the LifeSprings (Trinity in Leander) special service celebration last Sunday to honor each of the past leaders. One of the honorees was a church minister that Jones had repeatedly ridiculed and criticized to the church, a man Jones had proclaimed was not really a Christian; someone Jones had told the church to shun. This person was honored, but Jones was not mentioned, not by anyone. Not even when, at the close of the service, an "open mic" time was announced for anyone who wanted to voice his or her own words of praise for anyone. Not a word mentioned of Jones. Like a bad nightmare, something to forget and pretend never happened. A slide presentation was shown and made available on CD for everyone in attendance, but no Jones on the presentation.

No, Jones is not welcome back to speak at LifeSprings (which changed its name to disassociate itself from the Jones-past). Why the posted invitation on Smock's website? It might be more interesting to find out why it was suddenly removed.

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Pete, 2/26/01Ken Jones was very upset with me, to say the least, for not thinking the best of him when questioned about his methodolgy and incidents that happened to him in Leander. He decided to declare me a "non Christian" because of my cynicism or lack of "love". I apoloigized publically and he STILL taunted me, hinting that it was not good enough. He was very vague about things and used sarcasm and taunts similiar to what Adrian has done to you. You mentioned the fact that he talked to Robert Borer about it and YOU agreed with him about my spiritual condition. (Yet, you don't know me or EVERYTHING that happened.)

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The following is Daniel's personal account of events, and how he was edified by Ken Jones. Rebuttals from a Leanderite follow each entry, and are underlined.

Daniel J. Lee 1) raised by two Godly parents in a non-denominational charismatic church... Just living my life selfishly and as a hypocrite like most were doing at Trinity Christian Center (not a very Christian place as Evangelist Ken Jones would eventually discover).

So your Godly parents made you stay in an unGodly church for 18 years? Strange.

Ken Jones could never have made any money off the church if he had come in and said "you guys are doing great - keep it up". Instead, he had to convince the church that they couldn't survive without him there.

Jones convinced about half the church they weren't Christians. Most of the other half left because they couldn't stomach Jones' manipulative, self-serving unScriptural teachings. Jones had every Sunday school teacher, the youth pastor, etc. removed from leadership, claiming they were wicked people and had never been Christians. Funny, the pastor (Ron Rhea) and assist. pastor (Danny Jaynes, now Jones' father-in-law) claim they had never sinned since becoming Christians years earlier; if so, why was the church they were pastoring so wicked for so many years before Jones came along? And if Ron, as he claimed, had never sinned for many years, why did he on several occassions prior to Jones coming, tell the church that he had to repent of sinning against his wife and daughter the week previously, and of numerous other sins? Guess when Jones came along, Ron forgot about those things and could only remember the times he had not sinned, thus he "was sinless for many years".

I attended Leander High School and was an A-Honor Roll student, took advanced college credit courses in history and english, attained best actor trophies in drama and consistently impressed my peers, parents and teachers with my talents and intelligence. Of course, despite my very prosperous high school record, this was ALL DUNG because I was not even a real Christian.

Daniel, about HALF your classmates at Leander H.S. was taking "advanced college credit courses in history and english" ("E"nglish) at Leander - the school had a pilot program set up with the Austin Community College, Cedar Park Site nearby to see how students faired under the experimental classes. It was set up in hopes that more students would become interested in attending college courses on the grounds that they had already taken basic introduction-level junior college class(es) in H.S. Of all the many ACADEMIC awards given out at your class's Senior Awards Ceremony, how many did you receive? Zip, zero, nada. "...attained best actor trophies": make that singular; we all KNEW you'd get that! You were a ham for years!

2. February 1st, 1997 --- As I was driving home from Trinity Christian Center, going 70 mph, a woman driving the opposite direction at 70 mph drifted over the yellow double line and crashed into me head on. I broke my wrist.

You might be glad to know they dropped the speed limit on that section of 183 from 70 to 60 and 65 - too many accidents, especially on that really bad curve. But, were you driving? I thought it was someone else; maybe Derek? But then I can't say my memory is clear on that.

3. This accident GREATLY SHOOK me and filled me with deep gratitude for Jesus. I, for the first time, consecrated my life to Jesus and sought to EXALT HIM.

Daniel is SAVED!

Was this before or after you got really mad at one of the other guy at church for dating the girl you were intersted in? Remember? You dropped out of church entirely for several months because you were so upset about her not liking you.

4. March of 1997 -- with my broken wrist fully recoevered and my life now blazing for Jesus, I began to actively preach at my high school during lunch. I also helped spearhead Friday night evangelistic outreaches at the local mall in Cedar Park, Texas.

By "evangelistic outreaches" do you mean the one time a few people from church tried to pass out fliers at Lakeline Mall and were immediately thrown out by mall security?

5. April 4, 1997 -- Ken Jones made his first apperance at our church. I, filled with the Holy Ghost, was greatly encouraged by this evangelist as he blazed through town.

Daniel is SAVED and FILLED!

Now this contradicts what you have previously posted - you've stated you were in SIN when Jones came.

6. Mid-April of 1997 - I began to backslide and fall into GROSS sin as I dabbled on the internet and got involved in relationships with girls I should have never started. This dampened my zeal and soon I fell completely away from Christianity. I was backslidden and on my way to Hell by the end of May 1997.

Daniel is DOWN and IN SIN!

Daniel! Shortly before you moved to the West coast, you were moaning around church that you NEVER had had a girlfriend, that girls didn't like you, "What's wrong with me?", and you you'd probably end up single the rest of your life! Hence, you jumped at the chance to meet Annika in person. What "relationships with girls"?

7. May 1997 - A prophet named Rick Schmidt at Trinity Christian Center warned me from the Lord Jesus to stop playing games and to return to Him. I did not heed the warning.

Daniel is WICKED and REBELLIOUS!

8. July 1997 - A prophet named Michael Jaynes warned me to return to Jesus. He warned me not to allow the internet girls to come between me and my first love. This GREATLY SHOOK me but I still did not heed the warning. Instead I hardened my heart.

Daniel is STILL WICKED and STILL REBELLIOUS!

10. End of August 1997 - Evangelist Ken Jones arrives for the second time. Because of my backslidden condition, I am TERRIFIED of Ken Jones but I force myself to attend his first revival meetings. A glory cloud descends at Trinity and Ken Jones helps the Holy Ghost birth a REVIVAL at Trinity Christian Center. I, and many others, are exposed as WRETCHED SINNERS ON OUR WAY TO HELL!!!

Daniel is once again a BACKSLIDDEN, WRETCHED SINNER.

I suppose Jones might have seemd a bit intimidating to people with no backbone; he was extremely arrogant and demanding, wouldn't even tolerate an adult having to use the restroom during his long tirades of screaming and yelling "sermons" in service.

11. September 30 1997 - After a month of repenting,

Daniel is REPENTING!

Jesus responded to the plea of the thief on the cross with "Tonight you shall be with me in paradise". Good thing Jesus didn't preach a gospel of month-long repentence like Jones did at Trinity.

seeking Jesus and breaking up my hard heart, I go to eat my lunch outside during work under a tree. The Spirit of Yeshua falls upon me and Jesus commands me to arise and follow him. I become a TRUE CHRISTIAN once again.

Daniel is SAVED! You did NOT use the name "Yeshua" in those days; that's only been the last couple months.

12. Otcober 1997 - I am boldly joining other revived Christians from my church street preaching in downtown Austin, Texas and at the University of Texas. Ken Jones continues to spearhead the revival that rages on throughout October.

Daniel is STREET PREACHING!

"Rages on"? Well, at least Trinity made a public spectacle of itself in the little town of Leander, that it is still trying to do away with (hence the name change from Trinity to LifeSprings). The Jones-nuts used to stand on a street corner wearing a sandwich sign that stated things like "God hates faggots and whores". Leander is a one-streetlight town; doesn't take much to be noticed by the public.

13. Late November 1997 - Due to dabbiling on the internet again, I begin to backslide once again. I fall into some secret sin and my heart grows cold toward Jesus and the revival.

Daniel is WICKED! Sounds like Daniel began practicing Jones' favorite sermon topic.

............sidenote: As seen here, Ken Jones's "Sinless" message had taken hold by December 22.

14. Early January 1998 - Evangelist Ken Jones uncovers my sinful state and sternly rebukes me. I am "cast out" of Trinity Christian Center and from all fellowship functions. Instead of humbiling myself and repenting, I harden my heart, grow bitter, and decide to distance myself from my church.

Daniel is STILL WICKED and REBELLIOUS!

15. January 1998 - June 1998 - I fall into deeper and deeper sin, foresaking Trinity Christian Center and involving myself in other things. I, in practice, turn my back on Jesus.

Daniel is MORE AND MORE WICKED but telling people he is SINLESS!

16. July 1998 - My parents urge me to move to Oregon to attend Gutenberg College in Eugene, Oregon. I initially resist. However, my older brother, Pastor Ron Rhea and my parents convince me to move to Oregon.

Daniel is STILL IN SIN but telling Trinity folk he is SINLESS and has to get away from his wicked parents by moving to Oregon. It would be interesting to hear from Derek on this BB about your family's attitude toward your running away. Ron might have wanted you out of the church, to be sure.

I also meet Annika Bolon on the internet. We fall in love with each other over the internet.

Just like a fairy tale! Two people who have never met fall madly in love.

17. Mid July 1998 -- Eager to "get on with life" I request to be transfered in my CompUSA job to the Portland, Oregon store. Annika tells her college guy friends to let me stay with them. They agree.

18. August - 1998 - I move to Portland, Oregon. Three weeks later, Annika and myself elope behind our parents' backs.

Daniel is REBELLIOUS and ELOPES with someone he has known for three weeks - definately a marriage founded on wisdom and God's guidance - both you and Annika have posted that God TOLD you guys to marry, but you were (reading back above) in a state of being "deeper and deeper [in] sin" at this time.

19. September 1998 - Annika and myself, newly married, move from Portland south 100 miles to Eugene. I begin school and Annika works full time. We are still both miserable wretches on our way to Hell but generally comfrotable in our sin and hypocricy.

So the baby-pumper had to support you while you lounged away in college where you eventually dropped out.

20. November 1998 - Annika discovers she is accident. We are horrified. I will have to quit school to support my family. This is terrible news! My world begins to collapse as I once again begin coming under conviction from Jesus over my sinful past.

I was terribly sorry to hear quite some time back about Annika's two miscarrages, and pray for both her and her present unborn child to remain healthy.

April 13, 2001: Daniel is STILL IN SIN, and is LYING! Daniel, read your old posts on Smock's BB about why you dropped out of college. Maybe your new Messianic friends will buy your excuse under #20, but you have already told why previously, and it had nothing to do with Annika! You said God had called you to preach and you couldn't keep up your classes and preach also.

21. January 1999 - Annika has a violent miscarriage. As the blood flows from her, Jesus tells me distinclty that this IS ALL BECAUSE OF MY HYPOCRICY AND SIN! He commands me to return to Him. I refuse and harden my heart. We cahin rent movies and retreat into our darkness further.

Daniel is STILL in SIN but STILL CLAIMING TO BE SINLESS!

22. February 11th, 1999 - I begin charting my past on my laptop and realize I am a filthy sinner, not a Christian as I deluded myself to believe. I admit to Annika that I am wicked.

Daniel, claiming publically that he is SINLESS realizes he is IN SIN.

23. February 12th, 1999 - In the privacy of my bathroom in Eugene, Oregon, I CRY OUT FOR UESHUA TO SAVE MY WICKED SOUL!!!

Daniel is now SINLESS (again). Daniel, you did NOT cry out to "UESHUA", or to Yeshua, or to any other name. Be HONEST! you didn't start using Hebrew names for God or Jesus until about 2 or 3 months ago. You are still LYING! Are you lying to yourself as well as to us? If you believe your #23 then you have fooled yourself. If you don't believe it, then you are purposely lying to the BB readers. Daniel is now SINLESS but LYING!

24. Febraury 13th 1999 - After fasting from food all day,

Another chance to brag about his spiritual acts: "Let not your right hand know what your left hand is doing" "thy Father, who seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly."

Annika and I get on our faces before Jesus. WE confess sins to each other and to God. The Holy Ghost falls upon us like dew. We are both WONDERFULLY CONVERTED!!!

Daniel is SAVED!

25. March 1999 - Our marriage transforms, joy floods our lives and we feel like we have just been "born again". We invite Annika's family to our place and we reconcile for our sinful elopment.

If so, the reconciliation must have been shortlived, as Daniel and Annika later posted on Smock's BB about how horrible and wicked her parents and Daniel's parents are, and why Daniel & Annika rejected them utterly throughout 1999.

27. Mid to late April 1999 - My Eugene pastor foresakes us, not wanting to be involved in street preaching.

u>Would be interested in reading that pastor's account of if he forsook Daniel & Annika, and if so, for what reasons. Daniel has harped repeatedly against people who accuse others on BB's, but he has no qualms about doing so himself. Daniel is currently LIVING CONTRARY to what he preaches!

28. Late April of 1999 - I meet Paul deParrie, Preacher George, Jim Webber, Tim Yocom, Edward and a host of other street preachers in Portland, Oregon. Annika and I, GREATLY EXCITED, begin travelling to Portland every weekend to fellowship and street preach with these new found precious brethern!!!

Remember Daniel's terminology here: "precious brethern" - yes, these are the same people that Daniel has on his Hellfire List.

29. May 1999 - The Holy Ghost commands Annika and me to move to Portland. I am to drop out of college, support Annika as she stays at home as the Bible clearly insatructs. Out of respect for my parents, I finish out my semester at Gutenberg College.

Blaming your dropping out on God, now?

30. June 1999 - My parents disagree with my decision to drop out of college, move to Portland and work full time to support Annika but they still encourageand support me.

Yes, Daniel's parents DO SUPPORT HIM. On Smock's BB, Daniel first posted that they support him financially (when braggin that "God supplies"); then he posted that they never gave him any money. "Oh what tangled webs we weave, when first we practice to deceive." Easy to remember events that have happened, but very hard to keep tract of all the things lied about and what those lies were. Reality makes a much stronger mental image; it's an absolute, compared to lies which are subjective.

Annika's family are VERY CRITICAL of my brand new street preaching and so I demand them to repent for the criticism. They refuse and so I BREAK OFF ALL fellowship with Annika's family. I forbid Annika to even contact her family.

"Honor thy father and mother when they are old".

32. August 1999 - Travel to Jed Smock's church.

It was good for Jed Smock to meet Daniel in person and find out what he really is like. Eventual result was Smock barred Daniel from his BB, declared him (forgot exact word) a nut case.

33. September 1999 - Excited, filled with zeal, preaching as much as possible, I stupidly declare a FALSE PROPHECY. I later repent of this prophecy at the beginning of October.

Daniel, the SINLESS preacher LIES and BLASPHEMES, declaring "thus says God" when God said nothing of the sort! I wouldn't call it "repenting", you had set a date which came and passed without your "prophecied" destruction occurring, and you had to eat crow.

34. ... I am intrigued but not too interested in pursuing the Messainic concepts.

Daniel is too REPROBATE to grasp the Messianic teachings that he now embraces!

Annika also suffers her second miscarriage but due to the Holy Spirit filling us it is not much of a traumatic experience.

Maybe not too traumatic for you, Daniel, but I have known many Christian women who have suffered one or more miscarriages, and it has ALWAYS been VERY traumatic for each one. Too bad you are so wrapped up in yourself that you don't feel what your wife goes through. Unless Annika is the kind who doesn't mind the death of her own child. I have to admit, it isn't always traumatic for non-Christian women who don't value the life of an unborn child.

35. November-December 1999 - We fellowship with our dear street preaching family as we celebrate the holidays with them and continue to street preach in Portland on a weekend by weekend basis. We grow VERY CLOSE to many street preachers in Portland.

"Many" - according to Daniel's connotation.

37. February 2000 -- Street preaching begins to become a "norm" for me as I have been doing it for a year consistently. I start falling into a rutt. I loose my first love and start backsliding from Jesus by falling into pride. I start embracing sinful doctrines like shooting abortion doctors. I also start sinfully slandering Annika's parents and other relatives. Pride begins to harden my heart.

Daniel is BACKSLIDING! Daniel, declaring himself to STILL BE SINLESS, begins teaching how GOD SHOWED HIM that abortion doctors should be shot. Daniel, SINLESS, slanders his in-laws and is filled with PRIDE! (Maybe I should pause here and go dig up some of Daniel's archived posts from this time period).

38. March 2000 - Annika and I pack our bags and meet Evangelist Ken Jones and his wife in Denver, Colorado. We begin a preaching trip with him in the hopes of launching a full time campus preaching ministry.

Daniel, filled with SIN, but declaring himself SINLESS, is PREACHING!

39. April 2000 - Ken Jones begins to uncover my prideful and sinful heart. He sternly rebukes me but I resist and harden my heart. Eventually he sends me back home, commanding me to repent.

Daniel, with a PRIDEFUL AND SINFUL HEART, is telling the world he is SINLESS, all the while becoming more and more REBELLIOUS!

40. May 2000 - I return to Portland in a great state of depression over how things turned out. My high hopes of entering the full time cmapus preaching scene with Ken were shattered. Consumed with my pity and selfihsness, I continued to remain backslidden and cold toward Jesus.

Daniel, STILL posting on the BB and preaching on the streets that he is SINLESS, is in a "GREAT STATE OF DEPRESSION... AND SELFISHNESS", remaining "BACKSLIDDEN AND COLD TOWARD JESUS"!

41. Summer of 2000 - I worked over 50 hours a week at a car rental place. I am miserable working so mahy hours and great conviction fills my heart.

Yes, it must be tough when you're used to having others support you and you get a little taste of reality, and what the Bible means when it says "If a man does not work, neither shall he eat", and "If any man does not care for his family, he is worse than an infidel".

I am very depressed and I stop street preaching altogether. I begin to feel suicidal.

This is, to me, the most interesting part of your post so far, as around that time, God burdened me heavily with praying for your state of mind, especially that you would not attempt suicide. I was greatly stressed over how you would deal with the fact that you had made false prophecies, as well as promised never to "prophecy" again if they proved false, which, of course, they did. I prayed intently that you would not walk away from God over discouragement from your own false beliefs and pride.

42. September of 2000 - Overwhelemed with misery, I quit my car rental job and try to seek something else to help me.

There's just GOT to be a 10-hour a week job out there that pays the same monthly as a 50-hour a week one!

I continue to harden my heart against God and His Holy Spirit. My first baby is born but it does little to break my sin.

Daniel is in SIN but "prophecying" that his baby will become a mighty street preacher! Sorry, don't think I saved Daniel's posts on that.

43. October of 2000 - My parents and older brother visit me. I have not seen them in over 2 years. They greatly encourage and edify me. My first love for Yeshua is sparked in my heart. Reconciliation between my family and Annika's family occurs.

Interpretation: Daniel, sick and tired of having to work full-time to support himself, his wife and now also his son, makes reconciliation with his parents, in order to "seek something else to help me."

I brokenly and tearfully repent to Annika's parents for my slander back in Feb of 2000. I choose not to press them for the sin they comitted against us but let bygones be bygones. Great healing is done.

So, Daniel, once again your theology proves to be very flexible - it can mean whatever you want it to mean as long as it suits your purpose at the moment. In this case, you "choose not to press them for the sin they comitted". Interesting, you find that "Great healing is done" when you don't storm and rage at people and try to be the Judge that only God Himself is over peoples' lives.

44. November 2000 -- Relit with a fire to serve Jesus, I begin to weep and cry out for revival to begin in Portland. To begin in my own apartment. At the end of the month, Lissa and Michelle begin attending prayer meetings and bible studies at our house that soon turn into an every night gig.

45. December 2000 -- The GREAT PORTLAND REVIVAL begins and launches out from my apartment. The Holy Ghost floods us as we meet very night, street preaching in His power and annointing.

Daniel, a revival is when many people repent and turn to God. Read back through history books, biographies and autobiographies of the world's great revivals: hundreds and thousands turned from sin to God. According to you, "revival" means "Daniel is shouting at students several times a week".

The rest of my history has been carefully detailed on Jed'd bb and this bb.

So was all # 1-44, but evidently you're hoping none of us will remember it, as your posts then greatly contradict this April 13, 2001 posting.

As you all know, in January and February of 2001, a GREAT SHAKING occured in which Jed Smock, and many street preachers here in Portland were exposed in GROSS sin. This only strengethed our resolve to continue to press on into the Holy Ghost and His GREAT PORTLAND REVIVAL!!!

Daniel is ... um..., uh... SINLESS ONCE AGAIN! Um, no, uh, IN SIN! Oh, no, he's HAVING GREAT REVIVAL! Wait, maybe, it's "IN GROSS SIN BUT DECLARING HIMSELF SINLESS". I just can't keep up with all his changes, coverups and excuses.

Let's just make it easy: SMOCK IS IN GROSS SIN!

Now, in the 5th month of this GREAT REVIVAL, we continue to press on His Name, preaching, labouring, praying and studying His Word, refusing to turn to the right or the left.

It is now April 2001 -- nearly two years now of lamost non-stop campus and street preaching.

Daniel, you're bragging!

I have now been arrested for the gospel's sake 7 times.

Daniel, you're bragging!

I have been spit on, beaten, slugged, injured, threatened, slandered against, kicked out of many churches, foresaken by so called Christians . . .

Daniel, you're bragging!

but I count it all GLORY in order to attain Jesus, my Lord and Christ!!!

You're so AWESOME!

This, let it be KNOWN, is my true and accurate PAST.

Which part, what you posted above, or what you've posted while you were SINLESS, HOLY, and FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST all through the last few years?

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So, the torch is passed. One revival begats another one.

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Finally, there's this, which signifies an end to the cozy relations between Ken Jones and Daniel Lee, he who began the Leander Revival and he who would try to continue it...

Ken Jones January 20, 19102 at 23:58:32

I, J. K. Jones, want to set the record straight: Patrick Johnston and Brother Jed Smock are absolutely correct in their round condemnation of your perversion of Christianity in teaching that our obligation extends to all of the law of Moses. This is false doctrine. End of debate!

In addition to this (and this is primarily for the sake of Adrian and based upon his testimony): when Adrian challenged your need to call him to repent, in lieu of the fact that you had called me, you represented to him that you had called me to primarily "thank me" and "not to repent." This, also, is patently false. Please address this last point, namely, to Adrian, and be specific in your response.

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Daniel's response? Uh, just go this thread.

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For some reason the old church tune I learned during "Sunday school" (held Tuesday nights) has popped in my head:

"I am the church, you are the church, we are the church together...The church is not a building; the church is not a steeple; the church is not a resting place; the church is the people."

Or maybe it's not...

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